Curse

PsychoticMuffin · Feb 07, 2007, 11:43 PM // 23:43

Just thought of this yesterday. I was looking at the top guilds playing, and I noticed that the standard was to run a Grenth & a Melandru dervish. I was thinking to myself, wow, the Melandru really doesn't do THAT much more damage than a non-form dervish would, and they have a 60 second downtime to boot. Well I thought about Grenth dervishes. The reason they are so good is cause they can completely rape a prot monk. But they also have a 60 second downtime. Then it hit me. What if your guild ran 2 Grenth dervishes, but alternate the Grenth form between dervishes so that atleast one of your dervishes would have it up AT ALL TIMES? You would have a little bit less damage than a Melandru & a Grenth, but you would ALWAYS be able to do damage to their prot monks, so it would be worth it. And the dervish attack skills are still powerful enough to do some decent pressure damage. You could also combine this with a warrior so that enchantments are always stripped, and you'd have really good damage as well as perpetual enchant stripping. Tell me what you think.

Infectious · Feb 08, 2007, 12:07 AM // 00:07

Or have them both up at once and make an almighty push?
I actually had this conversation with a few people in my guild and no clear answer was reached, but I'm with the both at once and push option myself.

Morganas · Feb 08, 2007, 12:54 AM // 00:54

Couple problems with this idea.

If you're beating the other team while your grenth derv has his form up, and you play smart, you'll win regardless of how strong your offense is while grenths is down. You can always fall back to npcs, play a bit more defensively, move around alot, etc. while the form is down. Therefore, staggering is pointless, and using two grenths at the same time is almost as pointless, since it really only takes one grenths derv to demolish the backlines enchants, and while two will do it a bit better, I'd rather take something a bit less redundant.

As overpowered as grenths is, having 2 on your team is a bit of a liability. While the forms are up, you have to push a bit into the enemies backlines to do any good, and while it's possible to keep 1 grenth derv alive through all of this, keeping 2 alive would be hell on the monks' energy.

A melandru's dervish is the opposite, they're much, much harder to DP out than a grenths, and can pressure backlines with more impunity than a warrior, so while forms are up, your team only has to babysit one of the dervs.

This idea may have more merit in HA, where it's harder to adapt an offensive build to defensive play, but 2 grenths in GvG isn't a good idea IMO.

DreamRunner · Feb 08, 2007, 03:04 AM // 03:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

A melandru's dervish is the opposite, they're much, much harder to DP out than a grenths, and can pressure backlines with more impunity than a warrior, so while forms are up, your team only has to babysit one of the dervs.

I would disagree. Both the warrior and dervish act differently to put pressure on the back lines. Saying one is better is just a matter of opinion.

Also to the OP: Its not a standard to run 2 dervish's. I don't know about you but from what I've been watching is that top guilds aren't running dervish's at all. Mostly Harmless, Time is running OUT, accident prone. That was just from what I saw yesterday.

Morganas · Feb 08, 2007, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

I would disagree. Both the warrior and dervish act differently to put pressure on the back lines. Saying one is better is just a matter of opinion.

Also to the OP: Its not a standard to run 2 dervish's. I don't know about you but from what I've been watching is that top guilds aren't running dervish's at all. Mostly Harmless, Time is running OUT, accident prone. That was just from what I saw yesterday.

I didn't say one is better, I said the melandru's could pressure backlines with more impunity, meaning they can run around back there with less worry of getting spiked out than a warrior, which is undeniably true while their form is up.

Also, running two dervishes is very standard, just not two grenths.

Life Bringer · Feb 08, 2007, 04:45 PM // 16:45

I agree with Morgnas, dual grenth is overkill and makes you very suceptables to blind, weakness, cripple which screws over melee classes. If you have one grenth you will have plenty of enchat removal and then a melandru means monks dont have to worry about removing conditions and the added health further reduces the pressure on monks. 1 grenth and 1 melandru are a very nice combo and you have both forms up at the same time for biggest pressure possible.

JR · Feb 08, 2007, 05:02 PM // 17:02

Any push or offensive action that you want to make can be done in the time period that a form is up, this is why forms are balanced as if they were up constantly.

Thus as other people have said: chaining forms is a bit pointless when you can just play defensively inbetween and push harder while both are up. Blind isn't really a factor, competitive Grenths use /Rt with Extend Enchantments and Sight Beyond Sight. You don't need two Dervishes spamming Wild Blow, and a Melandru's can handle that job fine.

You want a Grenths to stip protective Enchantments off a target that you are then going to hammer with pressure, so spreading that out by running two Grenths and having two targets to spread your pressure on is less efficient.

DreamRunner · Feb 08, 2007, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Morganas

I didn't say one is better, I said the melandru's could pressure backlines with more impunity, meaning they can run around back there with less worry of getting spiked out than a warrior, which is undeniably true while their form is up.

Also, running two dervishes is very standard, just not two grenths.

Hmm I didnt explain right what I meant. It was my bad for that. Bad wording, sorry. But yes you did say that one is better. You said the melandru's could take more impunity than a warrior. I said I disagree, its a matter of opinion because frankly its a very situational. And again its not true. Let me explain why. You took out a build for the dervish class against an whole class. That is wrong, because the warrior could be running defy pain, watch yourself, shields up, endure pain for all you know.
If you said "The melandru's could pressure backlines with more impunity than a dragon sword warrior" that would be correct.

And how is running two dervishes standard? I would agree with you that running two melee is standard. But I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Farin · Feb 08, 2007, 10:15 PM // 22:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamRunner

That is wrong, because the warrior could be running defy pain, watch yourself, shields up, endure pain for all you know.

Then the warrior would be useless.

What he meant is that a lot of guilds currently run two dervishes, Grenth's and Melandrus, making it a pretty standard 'build'.

s w o r d y · Feb 09, 2007, 12:40 AM // 00:40

you would need a hell of a lot of extra damage pressure to make this work. Teams have become use to dealing with the grenth pressure now and chaining grenth really halves your ability to push.

I think you'd find that both up at the same time would give you a greater chance to crack teams.

sage tank · Feb 09, 2007, 12:58 AM // 00:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Life Bringer

I agree with Morgnas, dual grenth is overkill and makes you very suceptables to blind, weakness, cripple which screws over melee classes. If you have one grenth you will have plenty of enchat removal and then a melandru means monks dont have to worry about removing conditions and the added health further reduces the pressure on monks. 1 grenth and 1 melandru are a very nice combo and you have both forms up at the same time for biggest pressure possible.

Lol, grenth derv is unblindable unless u got unlimited energy,

have u ever tried.

Rune of Clarity+
Featherfoot grace+
Spirit of Recovery

God, blind goes away as fast as your next swing, it blind SO fast........

No, two grenth is definitely not overkill, you can steam roll most team that way before down time occurs. remember 2 derv are not your own damage source. 2 BHA/BA ranger can pick people off so easily.

DreamRunner · Feb 09, 2007, 02:37 AM // 02:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

Then the warrior would be useless.

What he meant is that a lot of guilds currently run two dervishes, Grenth's and Melandrus, making it a pretty standard 'build'.

Its irrelevant if warrior is useless or not. That wasn't my point at all. I was actually thinking that I would probably get the response that you said. My point was that Morganas said "A Melandru's Dervish has more impunity than a Warrior". I really disagree with that and its wrong, even if he said its a "truth" because its not.

If he was saying that running a Greneths and Melandru's is a standard Dervish build. Then I didn't get that. When he was saying standard build, I was thinking of as a build as a whole. And even if he did mean build as a whole, running two dervishes is the "standard" is wrong.

This is going off-topic. I'll stop here.

Yue · Feb 09, 2007, 08:03 AM // 08:03

It's not just a standard dervish build. It's a "standard" build everywhere pretty much. Most guilds run dual dervishes now. It's sad, but that's the meta.

Patrograd · Feb 09, 2007, 09:20 AM // 09:20

if you were going to run two grenths then imo you would have both forms activated at the same time. We have run two before, and tried alternating, and found that for the most part having two grenths that do slightly different roles - one essentially for deep wound and one for snaring/stance removal - was the strongest play - you just need to play defensively between forms. Worth remembering that if you have flag control and morale boosts your form is up 2/3 of the time, not 1/2.

PsychoticMuffin · Feb 10, 2007, 03:36 AM // 03:36

Well, as much as I've enjoyed reading all of your responses, they JUST nerfed Grenth Dervishes. Now they are pretty much useless. Where will the meta go from here?

Farin · Feb 10, 2007, 07:18 PM // 19:18

I'm not sure if people will stop using them, I certainly hoep they do. People will just switch to Dragon/Crippling Slash warriors I would think.

Wasteland Squidget · Feb 10, 2007, 11:41 PM // 23:41

Quote:

Originally Posted by RaZoO

I'm not sure if people will stop using them, I certainly hoep they do. People will just switch to Dragon/Crippling Slash warriors I would think.

I doubt it.

Grenth was "pressure for dummies." It allowed teams to threaten monk energy/recharge times and force kills by targeting a single character and pressing the spacebar key. Warriors are strong DPS in their own right, but they're considerably harder to play than that without Grenth clearing all the prot. You have to be constantly switching targets, staying ahead of the prot, pulling together for fast and suprising spikes, and generally being a lot more coordinated than most Grenth teams are capable of.

I think most of the bad teams that farmed the ladder with Grenth will just switch to another build that's powerful and easy to play. I've already seen a strong trend towards Shadow Prison sins - that build is to split what Grenth was to pressure.

Seamus Finn · Feb 11, 2007, 09:03 PM // 21:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wasteland Squidget

I think most of the bad teams that farmed the ladder with Grenth will just switch to another build that's powerful and easy to play. I've already seen a strong trend towards Shadow Prison sins - that build is to split what Grenth was to pressure.

Except that the shadow prison sin won't dominate a split like a grenth can teh stand when put up. If the other team has skirmish templates, they can likely deal with a shadow prison sin(particularly the 4 attack chain with burst sins). This also isn't even taking into account the shadow of haste/feigned neutrality nerfs. Of course, if the sin is supported with a eurosplit rit things can become harder to deal with. That is all not even mentioning that an easy button player using a grenth babysat at the stand by the monks really has no place skirmishing, even if he has that UBERLEET blades of steel.

Of course in RA, everyone is a sin and they all use shadowprison burst. So if you mean that they all ran to RA, i can see that...

Grenth at 30 secs is still strong and worth running if you have heavy pressure in teh build. If you can't score some key kills in 30s seconds without enemy enchant to hinder you Grenth probably isn't the problem. Of course, it should be even easier to do so right now since most players are thinking grenth was nerfed into the floor and useless, and are less likely to bring any specific counter(weapon of warding).

I just hope that Dervishes can start to see some new builds in high level pvp now. They have some interesting stuff that never seems to be considered because some of the avatars are so obvious.

s w o r d y · Feb 11, 2007, 09:39 PM // 21:39

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seamus Finn

I just hope that Dervishes can start to see some new builds in high level pvp now. They have some interesting stuff that never seems to be considered because some of the avatars are so obvious.

Onslaught baby. So freaky it just might work.

Nortos · Feb 12, 2007, 05:23 AM // 05:23

people still use avatar melandru though the nerf isn't even hardly worth considering only 150+ health instead of 200